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If you are thinking of joining a Jackie Skelly Heath Club in Ireland
you should read this page first. If you are already a member and are
thinking of leaving, or have already tried to leave, then you will find
it of interest as well.
Background
Jackie Skelly uses a range of established and disreputable (though
not illegal) modern sales techniques to extract as much money from punters
as possible. Some of these techniques will be familiar to you from shady
second-hand car dealers and unscrupulous insurance salesmen. One indicator
is that prices will vary wildly - the sales team will try to get you
to commit to as much as possible - but if a "special offer"
is necessary to get you to sign then one will be available.
One objective is to get you to commit in writing to pay for a year's
membership. The words you hear may well not match the words on the piece
of paper in front of you - so beware what you are committing to.
You may not think of joining a club as creating a legally binding contract,
but Jackie Skelly does. And Jackie Skelly will use the same techniques
to enforce their supposed contract that you would expect of the dodgier
end of the second hand car market. If you thought Jackie Skelly Fitness
was something to do with fitness or health then think again. The principle
business activity of Jackie Skelly Fitness Limited as recorded when
the company was created is "ACTIVITIES
AUXILIARY TO FINANCIAL INTERMEDIATION N.E.C"
If you want to leave the club and stop paying you will find that there
is no exercise of the normal degree of understanding that you would
expect of a genuine Club. Indeed if you want to leave, the people you
speak to will tell you that they are not empowered to terminate the
contract. They might have been deceived into believing that Jackie Skelly
Fitness has no power to accede to your request to dissolve the contract
- though of course this is nonsense. Jackie Skelly Fitness is not bound
by some authoritarian legal constraint. What they really mean is that
they (the managers in the Health Club) have been instructed by the directors
of Jackie Skelly Fitness to take the most inflexible line they can legally
get away with.
Their first reaction will be to reach for a copy of the contract and
then inform you that they have no choice - and neither do you. You will
have to keep paying, and if you do not the heavy mob - professional
debt collectors - will move in.
Is this Reasonable?
There are several reasons to believe that this is approaching sharp
business practice.
Abuse is common in pretty much all industries where the sales force
is paid on commission. Human nature being what it is, sales people naturally
have an interest in getting you to sign, whatever your needs, or stated
wishes, and their oral assurances that you are not committing to a year's
membership are worthless. Jackie Skelly does not follow good practice
here - and indeed it is difficult to see why a Health Club - rather
than a commercial enterprise - needs to follow this route of pushing
annual membership . It looks like Jackie skelly wants to get a long-term
commitment precisely because so many punters do not want to make a long
term commitment, either initially or once they see what they get for
their money.
What's the evidence for this being bad practice? Answer: the large
number of punters who have found themselves paying for membership that
did not realise they had signed up for. You can find dozens of then
on various message boards (see below). A second answer is the large
amount of Jackie Skelly's "Bad Debt". A third is the aggressive
and wholly unreasonable attitude of Jackie Skelly's management team.
According to the small print in the "membership contract form"
you will be committed to pay up every month even if you were to move
abroad, lose your job, have all of your limbs mangled in an accident
or fall into a permanent vegetative state. In extreme circumstances
you could "suspend" your membership for up to three months
with a doctor's certificate - not a great concession if you are limbless
and in a coma on the other side of the world. There are no circumstances
in which you can cancel your membership.
If you do not cancel your "annual contract" after 10 months
[sic] then it will just keep running, and money will keep disappearing
from your bank account after you tell them in the twelfth month that
you do not wish to renew.
Am I Bound by my One-Year Contract ?
More to follow on this - and no liability accepted for following this
advice. (Any experience from others much appreciated - especially actual
legal precedents - contact details below).
Obviously, your best option is to refuse to sign any supposed contract
in the first place - but if you have, then the following is the best
advice we can currently give.
Do not use the club. Write a letter to Jackie Skelly Fitness at the
company's registered address, saying that you do not accept that a valid
contract exists and that if they think that one does exist then they
need to be aware that you hereby rescind any such contract. Use registered
mail for this and keep your proof of delivery.
The legal position in Ireland is a little bit hazy, but basically the
same as other Common Law jurisdictions.
If you have never used the Club then you can argue that no consideration
has passed, so on a quantum
meruit basis you have nothing to pay. (Basically you are liable
for the "services" you have "consumed" but not for
any further services). The court may even require JS to repay money
already paid to them.
In principal, the legal remedies for breach of contract are
specific performance or damages.
Specific performance means you have to stick to the contract. Despite
what Jackie Skelly Fitness staff might try to tell you damages are not
likely to be significant for contracts of this type. Courts may well
take the view that you have no further liability - relying on a principle
of quantum meruit.
The question of your liability up to that point is left open (Our understanding
is that intent is an essential element to a contract - so if you were
tricked into signing in the first place then it was void all along -
but you will need a solicitor to pursue this line and recover the money
already paid). There is another interesting question is that the legal
entity that is purportedly making a contract with you is not identified
in the standard documentation
As far as we can tell, Jackie Skelly have never sued for breach of
contract, which suggests that they are well aware of the weakness of
their legal position.
What Else can I do?
Write to the Directors of Jackie Skelly telling them what you think
of their sales techniques and asking them to protect future customers
by stopping their dubious sales practices. You can find their names
and addresses here
Write to your local newspaper - taking care to stay factual and avoiding
any temptation to exaggerate or say anything potentially libellous.
The editor might welcome a scoop like this, so help him or her by making
your story interesting and pointing out that yours is not an isolated
case.
If local papers pick it up, try a national newspaper too.
Let us know of your experiences by e-mail:
we'll set up a page for them (just indicate if you want to use your
real name or remain anonymous). If you have any threatening letters
from debt collectors or solicitors we'll be happy to publish them too.
Let other people know about this website - if you have your own website
add a link to this one incorporating the words "Jackie Skelly Membership"
Print off this
linked gif file, cut along the dotted lines, and pin up copies on
public noticeboards or wherever - perhaps inside the Club you've been
paying for unwillingly!
Interesting blogs, newspaper reports and other relevant sources.
The Post, February 2007. (Read
the Full Text )
"Earlier this month, it was reported that
the firm brought in debt collectors to chase members who had broken
12-month contracts and not paid their monthly direct debits.
Tooke [A Director] said that the firm had lost
a significant amount of money from broken contracts and said that
debt collection was standard practice in Britain."
Blog (Gan). (link
to message board )
"In the terms and conditions, they say:
"the members direct debit will automatically increase and annual
fees will be subject to an increase on membership renewal". Like
I said it's my own fault for not reading the contract closely enough,
but it's sharp practice. I've never had this happen to me with any
direct debit or standing order I've taken out before.
I think this along with the debt collectors
story shows that Jackie Skelly is not interested in providing a decent
service, they are just interested in screwing as much money as possible
out of people."
The Sunday Independent, 14 January 2007). (Read
the Full Text )
A TOP Dublin gym is employing debt collectors
to chase lapsed members for their monthly fees.
Jackie Skelly Fitness say they have outsourced
the work to a debt collection company for "extreme" cases
of members who do not pay up after signing a year-long contract with
the gym.
...... and and interesting comment from someone else in the industry:
Gar Holohan, Chairman of the Aura Holohan Leisure
Group says he does not agree with legal contracts when it comes to
gym membership.
"The prospect of a member of any one of
the eight leisure centres that we operate being hunted down by a debt
collector will never arise because we are the only chain of leisure
centres in the country operating a 'pay-as-you go' system.
"We don't believe in locking people into
contracts and then calling in the debt collectors to recover every
cent owed to us, simply because those who signed up as members have
decided to stop using our facilities," he said.
"The industry standard is that almost
half of those who sign up as gym members quit within three months.
"I have heard stories about debt collectors
knocking on doors and the existence of contracts that don't offer
escape clauses. We don't subscribe to these practices that do nothing
for our industry."
Apply for a Job as Jackie Skelly's Debt Collector & Club Administrator.
No kidding - slick on the link above link to the add. Interesting that
Debt Collection is the first and most important qualification to be
a Club Administrator.
Swords
Dublin
12
Drogheda
If these jobs have already gone, just do a Google Search with the four
words Jackie Skelly Debt Collector for a whole lot more!
Note this interesting line on Jackie Skelly's own recruitment page
for sales consultants with commissions based on sales (see http://www.jackieskellyfitness.com/recruitment.asp)
"Excellent opportunity to write your own
paycheck!"
More Message Boards
More disenchanted customers complain about the latest Jackie Skelly
Scam
Boards.ie
Boards.ie
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Shana
- Ask About Money
My advice is STAY AWAY. They have enough TERMS
and CONDITIONS to keep you a member for longer than expected. It's
a very deceiving practice. My experience is ongoing I am in my 3rd
month trying to cancel my subscription. Also, Don't give them your
credit card details because if you cancel you direct debit from your
current account they automatically transfer it to your credit card.
Derek02
- Ask About Money
We checked out at the Gym whether renewal notices
would be sent out, yes was the reply, no such thing. We cancelled
the Direct Debit after the 12th payment. Lo and behold we got the
letter outlined above. You must give 60 days notice at the end of
your 12 months and you must sign a 2 month DD. Failure to pay would
see the issue being referred to Debt Collectors.
We rang them, and to say that their attitude
was aggressive would be an understatement. We had broken our contract
and as far as they were concerned they wanted their money. We outlined
the issues we had with the Gym, not her problem and we had nothing
in writing. "Who could we write to, you have no head-office".
" I Know", she said.....
We had suspended our membership for two months
last summer so we are still members till end of May, so we offered
to terminate now in lieu of two months extra payment (remember we
have paid the full 12 months already). This was not the way it worked
said the credit controller. BUT she said we could settle it all now
for one months additional payment ( but she could get fired for offering
this)... we said we would think about it and let them know.
I doubt whether this contract would stand up
legally as you cannot have an open ended agreement but who would be
bothered challenging it.
You need to be aware that the contract is really
a minimum of 14 months. If you join, dont expect any satisfaction
when you complain to local staff.
Staff turnover is high and they have little
knowledge of the company. Nor can you complain to Head Ofice because
there isnt one.
Andymad
- Boards.ie
I got ripped off by JS (like veryone else?)
My advice would be to find a reputable gym
and stay away from those cowboys.
Zantoro
- Ask About Money
My boyfriend and I, who have been members of
that gym since January (worst new year's resolution ever), filled
in a cancellation request last month in the gym as we're moving from
Ireland to go travelling. As we weren't hearing back from them one
month later, we went to the gym to check that everything was ok.
They basically had ignored outr request and
the solution they offered was to pay until the end of the year, which
did not make much sense to us since we're leaving...After the discussion,
an employee of the gym (who in her own words has a "masters in
economics", did I forget to mention that they're absolutely terrible
at human relations?) was offering us a "discount" on the
cancellation... So they don't just have discounts for joining members
(what's up with the fee varying per customer???) thay apparently also
do for cancellation.
Anyway, the next day, I called the gym and
asked again, if there's any other solution, for instance passing on
the membership to a friend. The person advised me that it wasn't possible
for 2 months but that in our case everything has been sorted... So
I hang up happy thinking, "yes I think i remember paying for
a month in advance as I joined so that makes sense".
Today, I checked my bank account and dear god,
the equivalent of 4 times the monthly fee has been taken from my account
(in addition to this month's monthly fee debited last week), by...
Jacky Skellie, not as a direct debit but using apparently my laser
card details to help themselves to 2 full months of membership for
me and my boyfriend (needless to say, not only rather shocking as
I never allowed them to do anything like that plus not a nice surprise
when you've been saving up to go away...)
As for more general comments on sanitary issues,
no member of staff is ever watching after the pool, so people go happily
from sauna to jacuzzi to steam room to pool without passing by the
shower, plus swim hats seem optional... yuk.
TreasaS
- Ask About Money
They are low down, & should be exposed
on Primetime or the like.
Do not tell you about min 1 year so called
"contract" ...I mean what do we pay an joining fee for if
that is the case? Was member of another gym until house move, then
to my regret joined this crowd, like an idot, did not think it was
t&c..just usual club rules about towels & property etc.. That
one about the 60 days after the 1st year is really low down. I just
discovered a bill from visa for another months fee, visa were no good...after
three calls, finally go to speak to JS accounts & told that they
continue to bill monthly until they receive a "buyout" from
me. Was told buyout was 50% of rest of contract when I cancelled.
Now she's trying to tell me it's 60%..eventually agreed to 50% and
have to take the hit for the extra months fee too.... It's a scandal
!! Beware before you join
Mcgivo
- Ask About Money
My wife joined for us in JS Applewood Swords
last year after moving to the area. It is a complete shambles .I have
been a member of numerous gyms over the past 10 yars and this definitely
is the worst .It is filthy , the trainers are never around and the
reception staff are really poor. I decided to terminate after 12 months
to be told of the so called 2 month termination notice. My wife argued
that the sales person never informed her when she signed up that this
was required. She was distinctly told it was a 12 month contract by
the salesperson because the SP actually told her she couldn't terminate
it within 12 months and was she OK to proceed. They said it was in
the terms and conditions so my wife told them to send her a copy of
her signed contract to verify. This was never done and we have cancelled
the DD. This week we actually received a letter notifying us that
we were entitled to a discounted fee if we joined again. I almost
laughed until I remember how inept the place was.
I wouldn't darken their door. My wife joined and subsequently quit.
Then she got a very aggressive phone call quoting a contract she had
never seen or known about. Now they are demanding to be paid for a
full year, whether she uses the place or not.
Libraman
- Ask About Money See also Boards.ie
It goes on! When my wife joined Jackie
Skellys there was no mention of any 12-month minimum contract, only
the two-month notice requirement. Since she wasn't using her membership
she cancelled her direct debit, without giving notice.
Then she got a very aggressive phone call from
the club administrator, quoting the contract. This was followed by
a letter with a 'contract' stapled to it - the first time my wife
ever saw it. I phoned the administrator and pointed out that my wife
had initially entered a verbal contract with the sales person which
did not include any 12-month minimum term. She then signed the form
that was pushed in front of her in good faith, without reading the
small print! I pointed out to the administrator that since my wife
had never seen or been told about this 'contract' before - much less
been given an opportunity to read it - the 'contract' is null and
void as far as we are concerned and that any court would most likely
agree.
But it was like talking to a stone wall and
the administrator is referring it to her regional manager for 'debt
collection'. I told her that whatever chance she had of getting two
months payments in lieu of notice, there is none whatsoever of our
paying for 12 months membership that will not be used, especially
after her aggressive phone call to my wife!
Shingaling
- Ask About Money
Jackie Skelly is a joke and an absolute ripoff.
e-mail to web-master, 8th Feb 2008, from " Fatso McIheartgyms"
Jackie Skelly has been ignoring me for nearly
two months. Unfortunatly, I am a member of Jackie Skelly fitness on
Clarendon Street.
I have phoned them 5 times. 5 times i have
spoken to people, who are getting paid with my money, to be rude to
me and ignore me.
Employees who answer the phone, do not know
any information about my account (thank fuck - i wouldn't give them
the responsibility of minding a pet turtle in hibernation).
No messages that I have left have been passed
on to anyone to contact me. So, I have emailed twice. Especially if
the woman who is qualified to speak to me is jsut out of the office,
maybe she can read emails? but NOTHING.
I gave them enough time to cancel my account.
now I want a refund for month no 13. Ever heard of this happening
before?
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